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How many of you build without a radius dish?
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=22689		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Dave_E [ Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:13 am ]
Post subject:  How many of you build without a radius dish?
Hi All,

The dish is one expensive tool I just cannot bring myself to purchase. I've got along OK without it for 6 builds and was just wondering how many other of you also do not use one and why not. You Dudes that do may also tell us why you do use it if you want. Thanks

Dave
Author:  Tai Fu [ Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How many of you build without a radius dish?
I tried it without the dish but it does make things a little harder because you got no way of insuring that the rims are consistent. You can make a domed plate without the dish but getting the rims to follow that is another story. maybe if you use a domed plate but flat (not contoured) rim you can do without the dish, but you will be putting stress around that area.
Author:  John Hale [ Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How many of you build without a radius dish?
I don't use a dish for the same reasons you don't, but I've made some concave sanding sticks that same as the radii I use, so I have cylindrical archs if you see what I mean.
Author:  Kim [ Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How many of you build without a radius dish?
I like a dish not least of all because it offers the perfect support to cradle the back when doing any work on the guitar down the track. I also have used mine to make handi tools such as a radius sanding board for quickly shaping the underside of the bridge rather than working with abrasive paper tapped to the guitar top and also for making bridge gluing cauls to fit the bridge plate nice and snug. I use my gobars lots and find the dish is just the perfect partner especially when gluing tops, backs, and braces and as Tai Fu suggested, the dish is THE tool for sanding the rim accurately.

Making your own is not hard, it's just a bit messy. If you keep the vac on as you rout it's OK and the pain is just once if you build them right.

Cheers

Kim
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How many of you build without a radius dish?
I built my first guitar without the benefit of radius dishes. After acquiring the 15' and 25' dishes, the ease, convenience and quality of my construction was really raised a notch or two. I noticed a consistency and repeatability improvement and now could not even imagine building without them. I also use them for all of the various tasks that require close tolerances and exacting fits that Kim described...it will definitely improve your results.

While I understand the economic issues surrounding their purchase, I would stress that if you can build a guitar, you can certainly build radius dishes. I tell myself that all the time and as a result have only bought two commercially available jigs so far. The unintended consequences of building your own, I feel, carries over to your ability and confidence in tackling guitar-related building issues as well.
Author:  David Newton [ Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How many of you build without a radius dish?
Me no dish.

I learned to arch my tops and configure the sides before dishes, and like an old dog...

Once you buy your dishes, and all the other things you need to use them, I'm sure it will speed you along, but you already know can build another way.

If it is just the cost, there are other tools you want. I can't imagine how to figure out which way is less expensive.

If you aren't trying to get into some sort of "hurry-up" production, take your time and enjoy what you are building. I realize with the internet and this forum thing, we sort of get into a competition to produce numbers, and in a lot of respects that is good, but you need to control the guitar thing, not let it control you. (physician heal thyself!) :oops:

You are among friends, it's ok to build without dishes.
Author:  Dave_E [ Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How many of you build without a radius dish?
Thanks All,

Very good responses! [:Y:] JJ, excelent points and I agree. During my start-up back in 95, I built all my own tooling and to this day they are the best working and quality of ANYTHING I've purchased... I just got lazy and did'nt feel like building new tools for the steel string adventure (was building just classical). Dave, I'm going to agree with you the most, you just re-afirmed what's been floating around in my brain for the past 6 months. My backs are turning out with a very nice, even radius and I've got the tops down as well. So whatever works for each of us is the way to go.

Dave
Author:  truckjohn [ Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How many of you build without a radius dish?
I have done 1 retop and 1 full build sans dishes.

My feeling is that they seem like they sure would be handy.... I want a set... but they are on my list in competition with more cool Lumber, a fancy 8" deep throat mic, and some other stuff like a drum thickness sander....

I already have a go-bar frame ready to go once I get dishes.... but my builds worked out just fine with out them.

My feeling is that they are not really necessary so long as you have *LOTS* of clamps.

I profiled my sides with a large sanding board made out of 3/4" particle board, sandpaper, and spray adhesive ala instructions in Cumpaino. It worked out fine.

Thanks

John
Author:  Tai Fu [ Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How many of you build without a radius dish?
cam clamps are expensive unless you make it yourself.
Author:  Hupaand [ Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How many of you build without a radius dish?
David, I understand how to arch the top without a dish, but how do you contour the sides?
Author:  jfmckenna [ Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How many of you build without a radius dish?
I contour the sides with a block plane. Never used a dish though I have been thinking about trying to make one, just never get around to it.
Author:  Tai Fu [ Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How many of you build without a radius dish?
jfmckenna wrote:
I contour the sides with a block plane. Never used a dish though I have been thinking about trying to make one, just never get around to it.


But you gotta be real careful, making sure the side is in the right shape so the joint will fit. Also to make sure that the size is even. I had no dimension to work from because I don't really know how to get an accurate dimension so I got a dish that I use for top and back.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How many of you build without a radius dish?
I went back and forth for a while about using a dish. I didn't want to spend the money since they seemed kind of expensive and there are so many other things I need (want?) for this obsession. I was also hesitant about making the dishes as I thought it would be real pain. I finally broke down one weekend and made a set of dishes. It wasn't that hard and now I'm very glad I did. There are surely other ways to get the job done but the dishes combined with a go-bar deck are sure a nice way to work.
Author:  Alain Moisan [ Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How many of you build without a radius dish?
John Hale wrote:
I don't use a dish for the same reasons you don't, but I've made some concave sanding sticks that same as the radii I use, so I have cylindrical archs if you see what I mean.


I use the same method, except it's an arched (15') sanding plate (approx. 2'x2'). I bandsaw the tapper in the sides before bending them based on Stewmac herrignbone plans. I've been making 27 guitares this way so far.

I plan on having a radius dish but only to be used on a rim sanding machine (my arms, shoulders and back are getting tired!).

And I build with true flat tops, so this method is used only for the back.
Author:  Parser [ Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How many of you build without a radius dish?
I use a cylindrical dish...I decided awhile ago to build cylindrical backs (instead of spherical ones) and just never went back. They really don't look or feel noticeably different from spherical backs. I would really like to make a nice router jig a la Jim Olson to contour the sides...
Author:  Antonio [ Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How many of you build without a radius dish?
Found this picture on a french forum:
good for arching the back (also not expensive):Image
Author:  truckjohn [ Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How many of you build without a radius dish?
For me, it isn't the cost of a go bar deck vs the clamps -- because I am sure that piles of cam clamps are *way* more expensive than a simple go-bar deck...

It is storage space... I just don't have room for a stand alone go bar deck.

Thanks

John
Author:  bluescreek [ Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How many of you build without a radius dish?
The disks are a tool . I tried about everything out there . As stated in a previous post , If you want repeatability and you want to take your final product to the next level , they are a must. The disk is much like a plane it that you can use it to make a pre determined shape , and at the same time it can be used as a clamp cawl.
Having the disk option just makes things fit so much better. I tried the arced arm , I tried the angle blocks as JJ pointed out , you just don't know how much better the disk does until you use one.
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